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It's great how knowledgeable and technical people are on here. I learn something every day :).
 

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Ok, that seems to be a little bit more complicated than I antcipated. Thanks for the link!
Yeah. Bluetooth wasn’t originally designed for this use case. It’s bad at estimating distance. Smartphones don’t really make it easy for apps to run in background on Bluetooth with no prompt to “wake up”. It’s kind of a hack that car manufacturers are doing keys this way.

NFC/RFID is more directly like a “key”, but the obvious downside is that you pretty much have to take out your phone to do it. (Though I’d love it on my Apple Watch.)

The new UWB (ultra-wideband) stuff that’s being done is more directly built for this key use case. And that Car Connectivity Consortium is trying to design it into their specs, so I’m hopeful for the combination of technologies to get us good and useful keys eventually.
 

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I believe Hyundai/Kia use UWB in their keys...
 
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the obvious downside is that you pretty much have to take out your phone to do it
And this would be in contrast to the PS marketing sprech which I remember to be something like 'when you walk up to the car it wakes up automagically and greats you with a light'.

Hence I suspect it's BT based. And after all, the whole Covid-tracking is build around proximity detection using BT. The car key would be even simpler as you don't have to calculate the distance from the signal, only the presence of the phone.
 

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Oh for sure Polestar’s uses Bluetooth and not NFC. Remains to be seen if the car already has UWB in there for potential future CCC Key 3.0 (I can dream, right?).

Yes, the covid-tracking stuff uses Bluetooth. It required changes at low level in the operating system to allow the bluetooth signals to be running constantly. It’s still not really that good at distance though. It’s worth noting the failure modes are pretty different: For covid-tracking it’s OK if it accidentally notices someone as too close. It’s meant to be an additional tool for health agencies attempting to contact trace. Maybe you were one room over and weren’t actually exposed at all. But hey, being extra-careful for two weeks is not the worst outcome.

The car key would be even simpler as you don't have to calculate the distance from the signal, only the presence of the phone.
I’ll slightly disagree with this part: The entire issue is that Bluetooth signal is an unreliable indicator of distance, and in “ideal” circumstances can actually be detected pretty far away. I can often continue listening to my AirPods when at the other side of my house from my iPhone. That’d be bad if my Polestar 2 thought my phone was close enough just due to presence of signal at other end of my house. So the car should be using signal strength, not just presence.

On the other hand, if my phone is in a backpack or purse, the signal can be attenuated by the bag, which makes the phone “appear” further away.

I believe more complicated setups attempt to use multiple bluetooth antennae to try to triangulate. Polestar 2 marketing material somewhat indicated this may be the case for that car. But I’m not sure anyone yet knows specifics about Polestar’s implementation.
 

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I believe more complicated setups attempt to use multiple bluetooth antennae to try to triangulate. Polestar 2 marketing material somewhat indicated this may be the case for that car. But I’m not sure anyone yet knows specifics about Polestar’s implementation.
Something like this has to be the case. You don't want someone on the other side of the car opening a door when you are trying to get into the driver door. Even today's key fobs are that smart. You can only open the door you're next to.
 

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I assume while playing sports somewhere with no lockers, like an outdoor field?



That's of no use if the 12V battery has gone flat, which is a common end result when things go wrong. You need the physical key that's in the fob and can be pulled out when required.

Myself, I see the "phone as a fob" as a novelty for when it works. I'll always be carrying the sports key or probably even the full key, since when the car decides to flatten its 12V battery, you need the physical key to get in, pop the bonnet, get to the 12V battery and jump-start it to get it going again or allow it to be pulled onto the recovery truck.

Tesla deliberately provide a credit card sized RFID fob purely because it can sit in your wallet; sadly Polestar give you a small house brick!
If the 12v battery is flat, how would an RFID car unlock the doors? Like you said, you need the physical metal key hidden inside the ‘black brick’ to unlock the door. Maybe we need tips from @dave about ‘man purses’ again so we have somewhere safe to keep the metal key without carrying the ‘brick’..?
 

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Discussion Starter #52
If the 12v battery is flat, how would an RFID car unlock the doors? Like you said, you need the physical metal key hidden inside the ‘black brick’ to unlock the door. Maybe we need tips from @dave about ‘man purses’ again so we have somewhere safe to keep the metal key without carrying the ‘brick’..?
Glad you asked. There are so many options. For Thunder-
2471


If you have the leather interior...
2472


Snow....
2473
 

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Bluetooth 5.1 does allow distance estimation (and direction too) but requires multiple antennas built in, and for the phone to support 5.1 as well, which only relatively recent phones will do, so I doubt it's using that. We develop things with Bluetooth and we've got 30m+ of range from a simple "paper clip" antenna if it's tuned correctly, so attempting to distinguish if something's far away but has a good antenna, or very close but has a bad antenna and/or is in a rucksack or similar, is nigh on impossible.
 

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Interesting information. I would assume an approach which works with older phones using BT < 5.1, though, and would guess the distance calculation is done by the car, i.e. the phone is only used as a beacon sending the digital token when it establishes the connection to the car when coming in range.
 

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I'm not sure Android or iPhone support being a Bluetooth peripheral (e.g. a beacon, headset, etc), rather just a Bluetooth central (phone or laptop etc). I'd expect the car to be the "peripheral" in this case and the two to exchange information about received signal strength, which each end can get automatically from the Bluetooth software even on pre-5.1.
 

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What is our current hard info on when the app, phone as a key, and remote preconditioning, etc are meant to be implemented?
I most want to be able to start heating remotely and do things like unlock the doors and open the trunk remotely, and checks if the car is locked or not.
 

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Hard info? There is no hard info about the future :).
 
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