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Discussion Starter #1
So one of the big claims from Polestar is that with a 150kwh charger, it will ramp up to 150kwh and stay there to almost 80%, then will ramp down hard as per all EV's.

I've seen Youtube video's of people charging at 150kwh but anyone seen this?

Why does this make a big difference ... Well this is my rough idea of the charging curve compared to the model 3 on a 250kwh charger.

540


If this is true or even close to true ... then the difference of charge time between a Model 3 and a Polestar will be very close to each other. So while the Tesla gets an early lead then Polestar would catch up in the last half.

I suspect the only person out there to test this would be Bjorn :unsure:
 

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The P*2 in real-world use is very unlikely to maintain 150kW over that period, just like the Tesla it'll scale down to avoid overheating and damaging the batteries so I expect it to take longer overall than a Tesla. On one video review where they charged it, it dropped after 15mins in low 20c ambient weather to ~80kW if I recall... which they commented was a bit of a disappointment. Now that could be due to a whole host of factors (from charge point to car), so until someone really takes their time to experiment I wouldn't personally put my money on that graph representing the actual charge curve being accurate IMHO. But happy to be proven wrong!
 

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Do we know how likely this is from the engineering side?
this seems more like The VAG group charging curves: Charging with an Audi e-tron

It does seem the etron and p*2 batteries are similar in that they both operate at ~400V and have a shell housing meant for crash safety. (Tesla uses the chassis itself for crash protection, saving weight) Both have pouch cells made by LG Chem and both housed in aluminum casing in their modules. So hopefully that translates into a temperature management system on the p*2 that is as effective as the etron’s to allow higher kW for longer.
etron battery details: Audi e-tron: Under The Skin, Battery Pack, Motors & More
Polestar 2 battery details:

But then it begs the question why the press cars weren’t enabled with these curves? A big deal has been made about the p*2 dropping kW early. Here’s the charging curve seen by German Polestar fans (can translate in chrome)

Is that just a snafu that will be fixed with an update? If so when?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
The P*2 in real-world use is very unlikely to maintain 150kW over that period, .. it'll scale down to avoid overheating and damaging the batteries ...
Yeah I don't disagree that most EV's out there at the moment do drop before 80%, and I had seen that video where it did drop to 80kwh around 50% charge. And you are right we don't know enough of the situation there - I could list another 5 reasons without even thinking that hard.

@polerad is correct too, there are a few like the Audi and the Porsche (which stays around 175kwh to around 75%) that do have different curves.


Polestar has made a big fuss they their cooling solution, types of batteries, testing, etc.. has meant they can achieve a long flat curve compared to most existing EV's on the market now.

That was the original point of my post. This is what they are claiming ... how it could look ... and lets all hope that they deliver on their statements!

Because as 150kwh chargers are beginning to be seen in decent numbers now with many more due in 2021 across the UK!
 

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Discussion Starter #5
But then it begs the question why the press cars weren’t enabled with these curves? A big deal has been made about the p*2 dropping kW early.

Is that just a snafu that will be fixed with an update? If so when?
The I-Pace's final charging curve wasn't released until the car had sold a few hundred of them (I think it was the first 100 or something). I even remember at the start they limited it to 50kwh very early on and some press cars couldn't charge beyond 50kwh.

Tesla and other car manufactures have changed limits and curves with OTA updates.

So it's possible that these press cars do not have the final curve. However in all fairness, it's also possible that Polestars PR on it's 150kwh to 80% is a load of old bull shit and we are all screwed.

Only time will tell.
 

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So it's possible that these press cars do not have the final curve. However in all fairness, it's also possible that Polestars PR on it's 150kwh to 80% is a load of old bull shit and we are all screwed.

Only time will tell.
@GDank I always appreciate your sunny disposition :)

In either case, even with the current press car charging curve, the CarManiac video implies that a fill-up in the P*2 is only +7 min compared to the TM3. I think I can deal with that as the least expected - especially since it seems Tesla has been throttling charging curves in Europe:
 

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If it takes longer, so be it. The real difference between the P2 and M3 is that Volvo is laser focused safety, and that includes keeping cables and batteries at the right temperature to prevent accidents. Tesla is more interested in numbers that can be used in advertising. I don't care if my car takes 10 minutes longer to charge, just like I don't care if my car takes an extra second to get to 60mph. In real life none of that is relevant. But one battery over-temp incident can be very relevant.
 

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Is the nonTesla charging infrastructure really that horrendous?
Every review seems to have that as a negative for the Polestar, to the point that in some reviews that alone sunk the Polestar in their minds.
Is it really that untenable to do any kind of longer trip with a nonTesla car, few of which are able to get ~200 highway miles?

Or is the situation somehow specifically brought up for the P*2 given the natural comparison to the TM3 LR?

I realize I'm preaching to the choir - but this just doesn't seem to me like a deal breaker the way varied reviewers/keyboard warriors seem to make it out to be. What am I missing?
 

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Is the nonTesla charging infrastructure really that horrendous?
. .
Is it really that untenable to do any kind of longer trip with a nonTesla car, few of which are able to get ~200 highway miles?
Initially I was concerned about EV’s and their range, but once the 250 mile range started to become more common I was happier; why? Because (pre Covid) I would regularly visit clients at that sort of distance and I didn’t want to have several stops on the way. I liked the look of and obviously the range of a Polestar so I put down a reservation.
Now I am looking at living with one (soon 🤞) I am planning my journeys. However in the last 9 months or so there have been new charger installations, so that a London run of 230 miles one way now has a set of 150kW chargers halfway - Newport, Gwent, and another set at my usual destination of Hounslow, near Heathrow.
I no longer need to ensure that I have 90% before setting off as there are currently several options available to me and the U.K. gov are supposed to supporting the build out of more on our major highways 👍
 

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Initially I was concerned about EV’s and their range, but once the 250 mile range started to become more common I was happier; why? Because (pre Covid) I would regularly visit clients at that sort of distance and I didn’t want to have several stops on the way. I liked the look of and obviously the range of a Polestar so I put down a reservation.
Now I am looking at living with one (soon 🤞) I am planning my journeys. However in the last 9 months or so there have been new charger installations, so that a London run of 230 miles one way now has a set of 150kW chargers halfway - Newport, Gwent, and another set at my usual destination of Hounslow, near Heathrow.
I no longer need to ensure that I have 90% before setting off as there are currently several options available to me and the U.K. gov are supposed to supporting the build out of more on our major highways 👍
You will definitely be fine. And you are going to love EV driving so much you'll never go back!
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Is the nonTesla charging infrastructure really that horrendous?
Depends on where you live I suspect.

In the UK I will give a few reasons people rave about Tesla's.

Motorway Services
10+ 120/250kwh Tesla stalls ... I've never seen one 1/2 full let alone full!
1 or 2 50kwh CCS/CHAdeMO booths. Normally one is broken .. and the other is full or both are full! - If anyone has gone to the A1/M25 Services at South Mimms and not seen both stalls full please let me know! (I need pictures as proof!)

Also Note that in the EU Tesla's now have to come with a CCS charge port and not their own "Telsla" connector, however while Telsa owners can use any CCS, only Telsa owners can use the Telsa CCS chargers.


Rapid Chargers (Not Motorways) (CCS/CHAdeMO)
There are like 5+ major suppliers at least another 10+ smaller ones.

Normally there is only one charger, however sometimes you'll get 2 - and IF they are working then .......

Some require a phone app
Some require an account.
Some require a superscription (Monthly or Yearly)
Some require you pre-pay your account.
Some require a RF ID tag - some even have to have these or are more reliable using this method.
Some require a credit card type pass - some even have to have these or are more reliable using this method.
Some require all the above to be set up before you get there, and if there is no 4G/5G (well probably no 5G as idiots went around destroying them) then you can't install the correct app to use.

Now mix and match all the above for each supplier.

Most are 50kwh, but there are a fair decent amount of of 150kwh going around now just off the motorways, and a few 350kwh too!

HOWEVER, this is changing. The EU have ruled that not only do all cars need a CCS, but all new chargers must have a credit card pay method as an alternative (although sometimes this costs more than having the app and account - but at least you can charge)

In addition I've heard rumours that Eccotricity (who are contracted to run the motorway services stations) have not only started making sure they are not broken down all the time, but also adding more, improving speeds, and generally making sure the service stations on the main motorways at least start to try and compare to Tesla! Expect most used sites updated by end of 2021 with the rest of the UK by end of 2022.


So you have two options right now if you are doing a lot of road trips.

One : Mess about with all those chargers apps, etc.., then hope they are working, or are not full (There is a decent app call Zap-Map for the UK that tries to track chargers live). Plan your trip with destination chargers at hotels etc..

OR

Get a Tesla - and while some of the above will still apply once you are off the motorway network, most of the time you know if you go X you'll get a charge!

-------------------------------

Ohh and then Ionity who were really good, fast, reliable, and cheap in the EU ... signed a deal with Merc/Ford/(others?) ... changed their costs if you don't own one of those cars, you'll now pay 70p per kwh - which is nuts! This is because they wanted their own exclusive network like Tesla - ok not as bad as Tesla, as you can still use them, but you won't if you don't need it.

It's almost like car companies (including Tesla) don't want to change the world with EV's ... they just want to make sure they make enough money and get you to buy their cars instead.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
I just want to point out though in the UK it's not actually that bad. I go to the Lake District a lot ... there is a wedding next year I need to attend there too. So out of interested I figured out the route.

This trip normally takes me 5 1/2 hours in an ICE - as we will generally stop for food somewhere and of course UK M1/6 traffic.

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Stop 1 (only one Stall) : 50mins ... this will be around lunch time so this is fine. This is off the motorway but near some restaurants and a 50kw Charger - but just a credit card needed!


Stop 2 (only one Stall) : 15min .. a little splash and dash to make sure we get there as I might be towing the bikes too. 150kwh ... Starbucks 24/7 ... what more do you need? Ohh an app + pre paid account, or App and then add your credit cards there (so a 4G signal) ... you can't make an account without agreeing to pre-pay £15 to them. :rolleyes:

It too is also off the motorway, but both only just a few min's detour.

And yes I based this on (350 wh/mi - 22 kwh/100km) Approx range : 200 miles / 320km - so I've used a really high figure to make sure I had the %'s. But as anyone knows ... in the UK you don't do more than 60mph on the M1 or M6 ... so this should be worse case.
 

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GDank

What are your opinions on the tie up with Polestar and Plugsurfing? Interestingly there are no chargers via Plugsurfing on the Isle of Wight where we holiday. I don't fancy having to travel to ASDA most days to charge up. We've got better things to do on holiday. Even Tesla chargers on the IOW are destination chargers tied to hotel clients only. Using an RFID tag to access charging appears to be a good idea although we need practical experience of it in the real world.
 

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What are your opinions on the tie up with Polestar and Plugsurfing?
When this was announced I did a quick check of "where and how much" on some Plugsurfing options. In my opinion its great if you go abroad and don't want to register with several overseas operators that you may not use again, but in the UK I found that Zap-Map showed prices lower by several pence per kW from the original supplier than from Plugsurfing.
Geniepoint is showing a 50kW point in a car park not too far from Asda ;)
 

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When this was announced I did a quick check of "where and how much" on some Plugsurfing options. In my opinion its great if you go abroad and don't want to register with several overseas operators that you may not use again, but in the UK I found that Zap-Map showed prices lower by several pence per kW from the original supplier than from Plugsurfing.
Geniepoint is showing a 50kW point in a car park not too far from Asda ;)
I found the same. Plugsurfing adds a margin on top, so you pay extra for convenience. However, on my routes, I found an InstaVolt which requires no membership, just contactless. Shell was cheaper by 5p KW if you go direct... so I doubt I'll make use of it in reality, unless they add a clear incentive to.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
GDank

What are your opinions on the tie up with Polestar and Plugsurfing?
I'ts better than noting, but there are only 250+ 50kwh or better chargers in the UK.
If you travel into city centres and want a 7/11/22kw charger while you are there, then it's ok for the Uk.

EU owners can go here to see chargers: https://www.plugsurfing.com/map


Interestingly there are no chargers via Plugsurfing on the Isle of Wight where we holiday.
Take your 3pin with you and charge a little per night. Yeah it won't be a lot but then the IoW is like the size of a 50p coin so it's not like you'll need a lot day to day. Then pick up a charge on the way home once you get of the ferry.

BTW I'm sure anyone can use the "Tesla" destination chargers , as it's just a switch inside the box the owners need to do apparently - i mean it is just a type 2 connector.
 

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I agree it can be confusing, but at least here in the US it's getting better all the time. Companies are trying to standardize payment systems and creating cross-marketing strategies. And at some point there will be more regular chargers than Tesla chargers.
 

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I'ts better than noting, but there are only 250+ 50kwh or better chargers in the UK.
If you travel into city centres and want a 7/11/22kw charger while you are there, then it's ok for the Uk.

EU owners can go here to see chargers: https://www.plugsurfing.com/map



Take your 3pin with you and charge a little per night. Yeah it won't be a lot but then the IoW is like the size of a 50p coin so it's not like you'll need a lot day to day. Then pick up a charge on the way home once you get of the ferry.

BTW I'm sure anyone can use the "Tesla" destination chargers , as it's just a switch inside the box the owners need to do apparently - i mean it is just a type 2 connector.
It's when the destination chargers are owned by the hotel and they are for patrons use only is when the situation gets interesting.

Sorry, what I should have said is that the parking space for the holiday cottage is about 20 metres away with a public footpath in the way so no charging back at base. However, the Island does advertise its "green" credentials so perhaps the situation will improve. Methinks time to put pressure on the IOW Council.:devilish:
 
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