Polestar Forum banner

141 - 160 of 170 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,809 Posts
some people prefer automatics.. some people prefer manuals.

I think manuals are more efficient... in the sense that I can choose to on the fly if I want to 'have fun', or drive it with some sense and restraint..
Fun vs. efficiency is a completely different argument. One is completely subjective, the other ruled by laws of physics.

You know that automatics became more efficient from an acceleration standpoint when Porsche (and the like) finally designed an automatic that could out perform a manual.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,661 Posts
Well, I don't think anybody's suggesting that you try to coast to a stop at a traffic light.

I'm glad we have the OPD option on the Polestar 2 and I'm glad that we have such powerful motors it works very, very well. But I'm also glad to be able to turn it off and coast.

I have OPD off all the time and am happy using the two good pedals available to me. I'm certainly not going to criticize anybody for using OPD. The small hit to efficiency isn't a concern, really.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,661 Posts
I love manual transmissions on ICE vehicles. I do. But when it comes to efficiency as measured by miles per gallon, an automatic transmission is much more efficient. Engineers spend a great deal of time getting it as efficient as possible to get higher mpg values which then helps them to sell cars and meet government standards. A well-tuned automatic transmission and the software that drives it beats even a really good driver.

But the manual transmission, though less efficient, is way more fun to me. So....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
439 Posts
You have all been talking about highway driving. I wonder about city driving with a lot of stops/starts.

Something OPD gives you is the guarantees that you aren't using the friction brakes (except for braking to a stop where friction has to be used). for the average driver I would have thought that OPD could be more efficient in the city. A driver using the brake pedal could be braking a little too hard and late, using friction brakes together with regen. With OPD the driver will ideally learn the braking characteristics it has and rely on that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: baldyloxx

·
Registered
Joined
·
549 Posts
Sorry, Snood, this sounds a bit weird: You are saying that an OPD-driver can learn the OPD braking characteristics, but a 2PD can't learn the blended braking characteristics? And you are assuming a 2PD-driver could be braking a little too hard and late, but an OPD-driver could not lift his foot a bit too late? Come on...

I can only speak for myself, but it didn't take me me long to learn where the dreaded orange part of the regen zone would start. Yes, there are situations where I see it, but I doubt that would have been different with OPD as these are the typical surprise moments - car cutting in lane, traffic light turning red (ok, most of the time, the power zone turns fully orange here ;) ), car suddenly stopping or turning in front of me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Not yet a P2 owner (not yet..), driving X3 2019 automatic (yeh I know an ICE...).
Just a nice reference to this discussion.
BMW maximise their efficiency mainly with coasting having an automatic logic when to regen (this one tops up the 12v) and when not. In a normal fuel top up cycle we achieve around 14% on coasting (from total miles travelled) which is not that bad.
The coasting is done automatically, slow driving, you get nothing, when travelling 40mph roughly and above you start seeing coasting engages when lifting the throttle.... they discussed this a lot during their iX3 announcements, we will see actual efficieny when this one out.
I'll be getting a P2 after years of Beemers, and will not go for the iX3 as really nothing exciting ...
But agree here, P* should go to these levels of software logic to automate things...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,492 Posts
surely they are the experts..
I don't know how much car testing Polestar did, or how many miles they drove, and even what parts of the car they prioritised for testing. Did they spend more time making sure the OPD modes felt different or that they were the most optimal for range/efficiency ... I'd guess the former.

However to use a computer game comparison: A company has 10 people working on just testing their new game and reporting back bugs and improvement for two years.
At 2000 hours of work per person per year, that's 40,000 hours of testing.
The game releases and a million copies are sold on pre-order. In 1 hour that's 1,000,000 hours of playing the game compared to the 40k that was used to find the bugs.

Assuming the company that made the car or any device / software knows best is a total misconception. 99% of software features come from user feedback ... a car is no different.

With 15,000+ cars now built / delivered even if every owner only did 6-7 miles each, that's 100,000miles of experience.

I know Jaguar said that's how many miles all their test cars did in total.

So assuming the average owner from Sept to Jan is 1,000 miles per car ... that 15,000,000 miles driven total. No way ANY car company does 15 million miles of testing.

They might know they car technically more than we do, but we sure as hell know more about day-to-day driving it.

You have all been talking about highway driving. I wonder about city driving with a lot of stops/starts.
I have said 2-3 times normally I prefer OPD on LOW, as it's a lot easier to drive. Even in city's I find LOW enough most of the time, with some subtle finishing of with the brake peddle sometimes. However, yes generally in City/Town OPD ON will give you better economy.
We was really trying to discuss how to get the biggest range and that OPD OFF, with ACC OFF, gives you that.

Now again I use OPD OFF but ACC ON all the time on motorway, as it's easier for long drives ... but if I was a YouTuber doing a 10,000km pointless race, then this is the minor things that get you that lower kWh/100mi result. ;)


But agree here, P* should go to these levels of software logic to automate things...
If you think Volvo has the same R&D budget as BMW you are mistaken my friend. It's probably 1/10th of it.
Volvo at best are a generation behind because they take what others do and backwards engineer it, like a lot of smaller productions companies do.
The Polestar "intelligence" might be given OTA upgrades, but I doubt we will see anything like what you showed until 2022, based on the current speed things are being turned around with App/OTA updates.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
I don't know how much car testing Polestar did, or how many miles they drove, and even what parts of the car they prioritised for testing. Did they spend more time making sure the OPD modes felt different or that they were the most optimal for range/efficiency ... I'd guess the former.

However to use a computer game comparison: A company has 10 people working on just testing their new game and reporting back bugs and improvement for two years.
At 2000 hours of work per person per year, that's 40,000 hours of testing.
The game releases and a million copies are sold on pre-order. In 1 hour that's 1,000,000 hours of playing the game compared to the 40k that was used to find the bugs.

Assuming the company that made the car or any device / software knows best is a total misconception. 99% of software features come from user feedback ... a car is no different.

With 15,000+ cars now built / delivered even if every owner only did 6-7 miles each, that's 100,000miles of experience.

I know Jaguar said that's how many miles all their test cars did in total.

So assuming the average owner from Sept to Jan is 1,000 miles per car ... that 15,000,000 miles driven total. No way ANY car company does 15 million miles of testing.

They might know they car technically more than we do, but we sure as hell know more about day-to-day driving it.


I have said 2-3 times normally I prefer OPD on LOW, as it's a lot easier to drive. Even in city's I find LOW enough most of the time, with some subtle finishing of with the brake peddle sometimes. However, yes generally in City/Town OPD ON will give you better economy.
We was really trying to discuss how to get the biggest range and that OPD OFF, with ACC OFF, gives you that.

Now again I use OPD OFF but ACC ON all the time on motorway, as it's easier for long drives ... but if I was a YouTuber doing a 10,000km pointless race, then this is the minor things that get you that lower kWh/100mi result. ;)



If you think Volvo has the same R&D budget as BMW you are mistaken my friend. It's probably 1/10th of it.
Volvo at best are a generation behind because they take what others do and backwards engineer it, like a lot of smaller productions companies do.
The Polestar "intelligence" might be given OTA upgrades, but I doubt we will see anything like what you showed until 2022, based on the current speed things are being turned around with App/OTA updates.
I agree @GDank , 100%, we can't compare like for like. Though, They (Volvo and Geely and Polestar) will have to keep the pace on, until at least we're in days (it will come) where range anxiety will be the thing of the past and re-gen is a nice to have and battery are 600 miles and charged in minutes... till then, I'm sure there will be an improvement.
The nice thing is (hence we're all optimistic) - it is all software...

Anyways, I was waiting for some time to have Android Automotive OS, there is nothing in BMW or others to compete with it and its potential...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
591 Posts
Just skimmed through this thread, so apologies if this has already been clarified.

A number of people have asserted that the OPD setting affects whether the friction brakes or regen are used. This is not the case.

The braking system is always fully blended no matter what the OPD setting is. The car will always use regen whenever possible and friction whenever necessary.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,809 Posts
Sorry, Snood, this sounds a bit weird: You are saying that an OPD-driver can learn the OPD braking characteristics, but a 2PD can't learn the blended braking characteristics? And you are assuming a 2PD-driver could be braking a little too hard and late, but an OPD-driver could not lift his foot a bit too late? Come on...

I can only speak for myself, but it didn't take me me long to learn where the dreaded orange part of the regen zone would start. Yes, there are situations where I see it, but I doubt that would have been different with OPD as these are the typical surprise moments - car cutting in lane, traffic light turning red (ok, most of the time, the power zone turns fully orange here ;) ), car suddenly stopping or turning in front of me.
I couldn't agree more. In that sense it still depends on the user, not the car.

I've advocated elsewhere for a gauge that tells you how many kw you are using or gaining. If we had that you could see when you were at zero.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
I also just read the entire thread, or tried to. Skimmed some of the in-fighting about OPD vs coasting. So maybe I missed this. Did we get an answer on wheels blocking during regen? Does Polestar handle this? How does it handle it in the different levels of regen for OPD?
 

·
Registered
2021 2
Joined
·
1,308 Posts
I also just read the entire thread, or tried to. Skimmed some of the in-fighting about OPD vs coasting. So maybe I missed this. Did we get an answer on wheels blocking during regen? Does Polestar handle this? How does it handle it in the different levels of regen for OPD?
In braking, regardless of mode or type, the car first tries to use regen for braking and only when >0.3g deceleration is needed does it engage the friction brakes. At least for all but edge cases I think that holds.

In OPD low or Standard, lift off engages regen only. Hitting the brakes engages regen first, then friction at the end for more intense braking. Low applies less intense regen intensity on accelerator pedal lift off compared to Standard. Not sure if the brake pedal mapping is different.

In OPD off, lift off of the accelerator just stops powering the motors, but doesn't do anything re braking. Hitting the brake pedal engages regen first, then friction at the end for the more intense braking.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,809 Posts
I also just read the entire thread, or tried to. Skimmed some of the in-fighting about OPD vs coasting. So maybe I missed this. Did we get an answer on wheels blocking during regen? Does Polestar handle this? How does it handle it in the different levels of regen for OPD?
Not certain about with OPD, but I know with the brake pedal the P2 will handle everything for you and ensure ABS kicks in as usual without skidding.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
But using OPD to come to a stop is no more efficient than coasting and then braking with a low enough force that only regen is used. You can't change the laws of physics!

So - again - OPD is less efficient because no human (no, not even you @baldyloxx ) is good enough to always be at the sweet spot of accelerating, braking or zero. OPD off is without a single question of doubt the most efficient way to drive because you are only requesting retardation from the car when it's actually required, and within regen limits.

If I'm honest, this feels like you like OPD (no problem there, it's personal preference!) but have decided that because you like it, everyone else must be wrong, even when you're presented with facts which prove otherwise. It's fine for you to say you prefer it - very happy there - but you cannot argue it's the most efficient system when many others have presented facts that prove otherwise.
When you drive the Polestar with OPD you see a graphic showing consumption in orange and regenerative energy in white. The second you take your foot off pedal you start recouping some of kinetic energy used to accelerate. According to this indicator on the car, it doesn’t appear that nearly as much energy is gained with standard braking, FWIW.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
591 Posts
Trust me, it does. Every application of the brake pedal uses regen first and only falls back to friction braking when necessary.

Theres no concept of neutral in the Polestar as there are no clutches or gearboxes, the closest thing is just disconnecting the motors, the car will then coast and gradually decelerate just like any other car due to frictional losses / gravity / everything else. Hard to see how this can be described as anything other than coasting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
549 Posts
According to this indicator on the car, it doesn’t appear that nearly as much energy is gained with standard braking
When braking with OPD off, the white regen indicator goes to about 90% to the left before the orange mechanical braking indicator appears - BMS allowing. How much regen do you see?

They really should have named that option OPD instead of regen in the menu...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,809 Posts
Has anyone tried to coast in neutral vs drive? Will the car even go into neutral above a certain speed?

My experience so far is that coasting in D is not great in the P2. There's a slight downhill the last 1/4 mile to my house and my last EV had no problem coasting home in D even while it did a very small amount of regen. The P2 doesn't seem capable of the same. It just stops coasting before I get home.
 
141 - 160 of 170 Posts
Top