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I don't even care what color I ordered anymore, and I've stopped checking the website. They sent emails when we had to "confirm" orders, and I think it's a good assumption that they will send another email when they are ready to finalize financing and delivery. "Late September" deliveries are looking unlikely. Just give me the car already!!! :p
 

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Latest “update” from my best buddy Mike (he must be sick of me by now). He thinks the finance guys are close to finalizing things and should be reaching out to the local “Space” who will then reach out to buyers. That process should be done 1/2 weeks (I feel like I’ve heard that before but Mike is just telling me what he is told). My delivery is still in the late Sept/first week of October, but there is some flex there because the boats need to arrive, etc. etc. So all in all I don’t know a ton other than Mike is a nice guy.
 

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I've heard so much stuff I don't know what to believe, including that the cars are already here.

Frankly I don't believe any amount of asking or cajoling is going to make this process proceed any faster, so I've stopped inquiring. I'm just waiting for that email.
 

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I reached out to Manhattan Motorcars to get a quote on my trade-in and they gave me a really low number. Nearly 10% less than I was getting from Volvo dealers. (I'd just sell it to Vroom, highest offer by far, but the state of NY has decided to subsidize greasy car dealers by giving trade-ins preferential tax treatment. If your trade-in is worth $25k, the tax difference is about $2,200.)
 

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I reached out to Manhattan Motorcars to get a quote on my trade-in and they gave me a really low number. Nearly 10% less than I was getting from Volvo dealers. (I'd just sell it to Vroom, highest offer by far, but the state of NY has decided to subsidize greasy car dealers by giving trade-ins preferential tax treatment. If your trade-in is worth $25k, the tax difference is about $2,200.)
Just successfully got rid of the car the P*2 is meant to replace and got a pretty good deal I think. It was pretty easy even during pandemic so am sharing the details

I put my info into KBB, Edmunds, autotrader, Carvana, etc and got quotes for what they would give for it. Then I took the top quote (Carvana) added $1000 and put it up on Craigslist and a work-based sales board. For all the low ballers I got rid of them saying that I had the Carvana quote. I set up the Carvana appt for pick up for the max latest date I could, and in the meanwhile a private buyer came through and ended up selling to them for Carvana+$700.

Was pretty painless and took care of most it in my PJs at home. Ended up getting near the median of what KBB says I could have gotten based on private sales. YMMV.
 

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Just successfully got rid of the car the P*2 is meant to replace and got a pretty good deal I think. It was pretty easy even during pandemic so am sharing the details

I put my info into KBB, Edmunds, autotrader, Carvana, etc and got quotes for what they would give for it. Then I took the top quote (Carvana) added $1000 and put it up on Craigslist and a work-based sales board. For all the low ballers I got rid of them saying that I had the Carvana quote. I set up the Carvana appt for pick up for the max latest date I could, and in the meanwhile a private buyer came through and ended up selling to them for Carvana+$700.

Was pretty painless and took care of most it in my PJs at home. Ended up getting near the median of what KBB says I could have gotten based on private sales. YMMV.
I am not sure where you are and so how much sales tax is and how your state treats trade-ins. Where I live just north of NYC, if I buy a new car for $60,000 and the dealer gives me $22,500 trade-in value I pay ~$40,800 (difference + tax on the difference). Sell the same car privately for $24,000 and I end up paying ~$41,300! ($60k + tax on the $60k - $24k.) So selling my car for $1,500 more actually ends up costing me $500!

Trade-in​
Private Sale
New car
$60,000​
$60,000​
Trade-in
$(22,500)​
$-​
Taxable Amount
$37,500​
$60,000​
Tax %
8.8%​
8.8%​
Tax
$3,300​
$5,280​
Cash paid
$40,800​
$65,280​
Private Sale
$-​
$(24,000)​
Net cost
$40,800​
$41,280​
 

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I reached out to Manhattan Motorcars to get a quote on my trade-in and they gave me a really low number. Nearly 10% less than I was getting from Volvo dealers. (I'd just sell it to Vroom, highest offer by far, but the state of NY has decided to subsidize greasy car dealers by giving trade-ins preferential tax treatment. If your trade-in is worth $25k, the tax difference is about $2,200.)
Not sure how that subsidizes the dealer? It saves you as the purchaser money by reducing your tax burden. It only applies to trade ins if the dealer intends to resell the vehicle. When resold, tax is paid by the purchaser on that vehicle.
 

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Not sure how that subsidizes the dealer? It saves you as the purchaser money by reducing your tax burden. It only applies to trade ins if the dealer intends to resell the vehicle. When resold, tax is paid by the purchaser on that vehicle.
It allows the dealer to pay a less-than-market-value amount on the car since the customer is incentivized to trade it in below-market. Private used-car purchases are subject to the same sales tax so the state would lose nothing by allowing private-party sales to be treated the same way. So the state forgoing some revenue, which allows the dealer to underpay, is in effect (and in economics) a subsidy to the car dealers. In the numbers example above, the law put $1,500 in the dealer's pocket at my expense. (ETA: and the state gained nothing. They get the same tax on the used car sale whether I sell it for $24k or the dealer sells it for $24k.)
 

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It allows the dealer to pay a less-than-market-value amount on the car since the customer is incentivized to trade it in below-market. Private used-car purchases are subject to the same sales tax so the state would lose nothing by allowing private-party sales to be treated the same way. So the state forgoing some revenue, which allows the dealer to underpay, is in effect (and in economics) a subsidy to the car dealers. In the numbers example above, the law put $1,500 in the dealer's pocket at my expense.
You do realize the dealer has to make profit when they re-sell your car? And there are costs involved for them purchasing your car, keeping it in inventory, prepping it for sale, etc. So of course they are going to offer less than private sale "market value". KBB trade in values are always less than private party sales, not just in NY....Again no-one has to take the dealer's offer, but to me it is a win-win scenario....
 

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You do realize the dealer has to make profit when they re-sell your car? And there are costs involved for them purchasing your car, keeping it in inventory, prepping it for sale, etc. So of course they are going to offer less than private sale "market value". KBB trade in values are always less than private party sales, not just in NY....Again no-one has to take the dealer's offer, but to me it is a win-win scenario....
You may be missing the point. The first point was to @polerad that he may lose money by selling it privately at a higher price than trading it in. The second point wasn't that dealers shouldn't make money, it was that the state shouldn't help them do so. If the tax law treated the transaction the same way regardless of who I sell the car to, dealers would buy and sell less used cars, true, but individuals would have more money in their pockets. People would still choose to trade in if the price is a few hundred less and avoids the hassle but as it is they underpay by $1500+.
 

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The gap between the Vroom offer and Manhattan Motorcars offer was $3k+. Will actually make sense to sell to Vroom and pay the higher tax!
 

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You may be missing the point. The first point was to @polerad that he may lose money by selling it privately at a higher price than trading it in. The second point wasn't that dealers shouldn't make money, it was that the state shouldn't help them do so. If the tax law treated the transaction the same way regardless of who I sell the car to, dealers would buy and sell less used cars, true, but individuals would have more money in their pockets. People would still choose to trade in if the price is a few hundred less and avoids the hassle but as it is they underpay by $1500+.
Not missing the point at all. I just don't see it as "subsidizing" the dealer. To me that implies that it is the dealer benefitting, not the customer. If there was no tax benefit, I don't see the dealer then suddenly offering the customer more money for the trade-ins to match private sale prices. As you stated, they probably would end up taking less trade ins, but I doubt that would affect their bottom line much.

Your initial premise was that they are offering less for a trade in than private market value because they know they can get away with it - because that differential is offset for the customer by the tax break. No - they offer less money ("wholesale price") because of the expenses I mentioned, and their need to re-sell that car at a profit.Anyhow - not looking to hijack this thread - glad we are given the choices we have when getting a new vehicle...
 

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The first point was to @polerad that he may lose money by selling it privately at a higher price than trading it in.
Earlier in the pandemic I checked out both the etron and IPace and went far enough into the process to get trade in estimates. Both the Audi and Jag local dealers gave estimates that ended up being close to each other and ~$2k less than I ended up selling for.

I’m sure there are edge examples to the counter but KBB consistently shows less for trade-in values compared to private sales. And my N=1 experiment ended up being exactly in line with KBB. FWIW the online shops like Carvana seem to be at the average of dealer trade in and private sale. YMMV

Edit: now realize @standardcode might be saying that the tax incentive somehow makes the car seller pay significant taxes for the sale to make up the difference? Not sure exactly how that works but am guessing there’s diffs I guess between NY and CA
 

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am guessing there’s diffs I guess between NY and CA
That’s correct — in NY the value of the trade-in gets deducted from the sale price of the new car before tax is calculated, so trading lowers the tax you owe on the new car purchase. In CA, you pay tax on the full sale price of the new car no matter what the value of the trade in is, so there’s less incentive to trade vs. negotiating a private sale (other than the ease of transacting).
 

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I am not sure where you are and so how much sales tax is and how your state treats trade-ins. Where I live just north of NYC, if I buy a new car for $60,000 and the dealer gives me $22,500 trade-in value I pay ~$40,800 (difference + tax on the difference). Sell the same car privately for $24,000 and I end up paying ~$41,300! ($60k + tax on the $60k - $24k.) So selling my car for $1,500 more actually ends up costing me $500!

Trade-in​
Private Sale
New car
$60,000​
$60,000​
Trade-in
$(22,500)​
$-​
Taxable Amount
$37,500​
$60,000​
Tax %
8.8%​
8.8%​
Tax
$3,300​
$5,280​
Cash paid
$40,800​
$65,280​
Private Sale
$-​
$(24,000)​
Net cost
$40,800​
$41,280​
I completely missed this post in the thread. All makes sense now

Thanks for the explanation to @standardcode and @PolestarMG

Now I will cry myself to sleep a little more over all the taxes I pay given even NY would tax me less
 

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I am not sure where you are and so how much sales tax is and how your state treats trade-ins. Where I live just north of NYC, if I buy a new car for $60,000 and the dealer gives me $22,500 trade-in value I pay ~$40,800 (difference + tax on the difference). Sell the same car privately for $24,000 and I end up paying ~$41,300! ($60k + tax on the $60k - $24k.) So selling my car for $1,500 more actually ends up costing me $500!

Trade-in​
Private Sale
New car
$60,000​
$60,000​
Trade-in
$(22,500)​
$-​
Taxable Amount
$37,500​
$60,000​
Tax %
8.8%​
8.8%​
Tax
$3,300​
$5,280​
Cash paid
$40,800​
$65,280​
Private Sale
$-​
$(24,000)​
Net cost
$40,800​
$41,280​
Thank you Standardcode. This is an issue I had not considered. My situation gets more complex as I live in Florida. I don't know if the P2 is delivered to me in Florida, or if I come to NY to pick it up, if it would be considered a NY purchase or a Florida purchase. Florida will "credit" me the sales tax paid in NY ( a reciprocal state) up to the Florida rate, 6%. In the Florida documentation it shows NY with a 4% rate, but in your example you use 8.8%. Does your example include county and city tax? In any event, I'm going to have to investigate further as to how all this works. Here is an excerpt from a Florida Tax Information Sheet:

Motor Vehicles Purchased in Another State and Brought into Florida
Florida’s use tax rate of 6% generally applies to motor vehicles purchased in another state, District of Columbia, or U.S. territory and subsequently titled, registered, or licensed in Florida. Florida law allows a credit to be given to reduce the tax due when a like tax has been lawfully imposed and paid in another state, District of Columbia, or U.S. territory. Credit against Florida use tax and any discretionary sales surtax is given for a like tax paid in another state, 2 whether the tax has been paid to that state, or to a county or city (local taxes) within that state. If the amount paid is equal to or greater than the amount imposed by Florida, no additional tax is due. If the amount paid is less than the amount due as imposed by Florida, only the difference between the two tax rates is due. Any motor vehicle used in another state, District of Columbia, or U.S. territory for six months or longer before being brought into Florida is presumed to be purchased for use outside Florida. When the vehicle owner provides documentation establishing that the vehicle was used outside Florida for six months or longer before being registered in Florida, no Florida use tax is due.
 

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Thank you Standardcode. This is an issue I had not considered. My situation gets more complex as I live in Florida. I don't know if the P2 is delivered to me in Florida, or if I come to NY to pick it up, if it would be considered a NY purchase or a Florida purchase. Florida will "credit" me the sales tax paid in NY ( a reciprocal state) up to the Florida rate, 6%. In the Florida documentation it shows NY with a 4% rate, but in your example you use 8.8%. Does your example include county and city tax? In any event, I'm going to have to investigate further as to how all this works.
I did include local taxes. When you buy a car locally (in NY or NJ) taxes are determined by where you register the car, not where you purchase it.
 

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Thank you Standardcode. This is an issue I had not considered. My situation gets more complex as I live in Florida. I don't know if the P2 is delivered to me in Florida, or if I come to NY to pick it up, if it would be considered a NY purchase or a Florida purchase. Florida will "credit" me the sales tax paid in NY ( a reciprocal state) up to the Florida rate, 6%. In the Florida documentation it shows NY with a 4% rate, but in your example you use 8.8%. Does your example include county and city tax? In any event, I'm going to have to investigate further as to how all this works. Here is an excerpt from a Florida Tax Information Sheet:

Motor Vehicles Purchased in Another State and Brought into Florida
Florida’s use tax rate of 6% generally applies to motor vehicles purchased in another state, District of Columbia, or U.S. territory and subsequently titled, registered, or licensed in Florida. Florida law allows a credit to be given to reduce the tax due when a like tax has been lawfully imposed and paid in another state, District of Columbia, or U.S. territory. Credit against Florida use tax and any discretionary sales surtax is given for a like tax paid in another state, 2 whether the tax has been paid to that state, or to a county or city (local taxes) within that state. If the amount paid is equal to or greater than the amount imposed by Florida, no additional tax is due. If the amount paid is less than the amount due as imposed by Florida, only the difference between the two tax rates is due. Any motor vehicle used in another state, District of Columbia, or U.S. territory for six months or longer before being brought into Florida is presumed to be purchased for use outside Florida. When the vehicle owner provides documentation establishing that the vehicle was used outside Florida for six months or longer before being registered in Florida, no Florida use tax is due.
I believe you are not buying and bringing a car into FL. Even if you go pick it up in NY, it will be titled -- for the first time -- in FL. And so the tax should be as if you bought it in FL from a local dealer.
 
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