Really disappointed here, another dumb move by Ford. A set back towards total standardization and another self-absorbed short-sighted 'american' decision. Tesla was already moving towards CCS or adapters on supercharger stations, now they have less incentive to do so. Ford adding unnecessary cost/complexity to their vehicles by adding a second charging port. Besides for Ford EV owners I am seeing no good news here.

Or am i being too negative?

 

Really disappointed here, another dumb move by Ford. A set back towards total standardization and another self-absorbed short-sighted 'american' decision. Tesla was already moving towards CCS or adapters on supercharger stations, now they have less incentive to do so. Ford adding unnecessary cost/complexity to their vehicles by adding a second charging port. Besides for Ford EV owners I am seeing no good news here.

Or am i being too negative?

Not likely Ford will add a second charge-port. The benefit of adding a NACS (Tesla) port is not simply access to the Supercharger network, it's also a huge cost-savings to install vs CCS-1 port.

I am by no means a Tesla fanboy, however, I have owned a Model S and must admit the NACS charging setup is more elegant and easy to use than CCS by a wide margin.

Ford's Bold Move: Embracing Tesla's Charging Standard for Electric Vehicles

 

This doesn’t bode well for our resale values if we’ve got the Betamax of EVs. I hope I’m wrong but this could prove disastrous over the next few years in terms of encouraging the expansion of the terrible existing EV charging networks in North America if companies feel like they’re on the losing side of a format war. Will they continue to invest millions in CCS? Will they stall waiting to see how the format war plays out? What does that mean for those hoping for broad expansion of CCS networks?

 

I guess I don’t see the point given the “magic dock” (basically a Tesla-CCS adapter) has already been developed and is being deployed. So why physically adopt the Tesla port?

Does the Tesla port/standard allow for 800V/350kW+ charging ?
Thought I heard something about that being limited in the Tesla port. If so, that seems silly to limit future Fords too as I imagine the trucks will want to be able to charge at the high rates that 800V architectures enable.

 

Does the Tesla port/standard allow for 800V/350kW+ charging ?

The NACS standard allows for up to 1MW charging at 1kV.

 

I don't know what NACS specifically supports, but iirc current superchargers only do 250kW with higher coming at some point in the future. So I assume NACS can do faster, but Tesla actually seems to be behind EA in this one regard. Not that it matters much, nothing that can use an NACS supercharger can even get that charge speed right now.

I don't think this will be a "betamax" situation as you only need an adapter to go between NACS and CCS (provided the charger itself supports doing so - which newer superchargers seemingly will and I'd assume any other networks would as well). That said, I'm not super happy with them going for NACS. Most of the issues with non-Tesla charging networks have nothing to do with CCS (the networks just aren't well maintained and haven't had as long to build out infrastructure). Talk about NACS connectors being "so much easier to use" than CCS(1) is also way overblown, since the reason for larger heaver cables with CCS is due to the cables needing to be longer to support more vehicles, nothing to do with the connector itself.

And convincing an entire industry to move to a new connector is going to be harder than Tesla sticking to its half-walled garden (or eventually switching themselves). Ford tipped the scales a bit, but not exactly in the way I'd hoped.

 

Silly to have two or 3 charging connectors that basically do the same thing, hence why all of Europe is on CCS even Tesla. Easier to change on brand to CCS than to change all brands to Tesla.

 

But…….merica

 

I’m really conflicted about this. Not gonna re-cap why Tesla/Elon are problematic. In addition it feels simultaneously “too late” to change the charging standard but also if it’s ever going to change, this is probably the last possible moment. So maybe they can sneak it in just before EVs really take off here?

If they manage to get one more big EV manufacturer or one of the major charging networks, it feels like there’s a real chance it changes. Have to move fast though.

I do think the Tesla connector design is better than CCS.

• CCS is ugly.
• Smaller connector is better for humans, even if cables end up the same weight.
• The additional physical-only lever-lock on CCS/J1772 is often forgotten about when people disconnect. I’ve seen a lot of them broken. Between trying to turn off from the charger, vs convince the car to disconnect, vs physically levering that final latch, I can see why people sometimes get impatient and forget to hold down the latch. (And I’ve observed my parents failing to do this too, more below.) (Yes, I understand electronic latch has a more annoying failure case, but in practice it’s less common than the physical latch being broken by impatient people.)
• Casual drivers really don’t understand when/why they’d have the DC pins, so having a separate cover is an additional complication. I pretty regularly see people try to jab the CCS in, then realize they have to move their DC cover.
• We’ve had prior threads discussing how CCS connectivity issues are partially because the data pins are at the top, while the meaty heavy pins are at the bottom, so the connector leans in exactly the right way to decrease data pin connections.
• I’ve rented a Tesla with my parents, and they recently purchased a Mach-E, so I’ve observed them charging both. It’s not just the cable weight that makes CCS really difficult for them. Lining up those bottom pins and pressing in the top is a maneuver that young folk like me find easy, sure, but it remains an issue for them.

On the other hand, having two different connectors this far into adoption is annoying and it’ll be terrible if we just end up having both for a very long time. Only one connector that’s CCS is better than having adapters for the rest of time.

 

My parents also have a much easier time with Tesla compared to CCS. And honestly I do too. Getting the whole CCS apparatus lined up is a faff compared to inserting the much smaller form factor Tesla plug.

I think my ideal would be a Tesla-like connector/cable if it could safely get to 300-400kW sustained (as thats going to be the need in the near future) and that be the standard worldwide. But given that Tesla for the near/mid term will be limited to 250kW sustained, and the growing number of CCS cars here, I guess I’m for a more rapid shift towards CCS + adapters at SuperChargers.

my guess is, as you indicate, this is a last ditch attempt to shift to the Tesla standard - or at least to get the federal subsidies associated with charging infrastructure - before the onslaught of CCS vehicles and the CCS network build out.

 

This is amazing news and I hope Polestar does it too. I had a Tesla and the charging experience (just talking about plugging in the cables, don't even station up time or availability) is much better. Same port for AC and DC. Easy to Handle. Agreed its a little late in the game to be changing but not too late. The Majority of EVs in the US are still Teslas, and the CCS network is still in its infancy...so its not really like they are switching over standards. I can see automakers quickly switching to this Tesla plug now if a major automaker like Ford does it.

Also, I believe Tesla connectors can take more than CCS in terms of current. Hence Tesla 400v cars can take 250kw but CCS cars are limited to 500amps so max power is around 200kw on a 400v car. Pure speculation but maybe the P3 /EX90 will come with NACS connector since it seems to be the only 400v non Tesla that says it can do 250kw charging.

 

Tesla has already rolled out and sells a CCS1-Tesla adapter that allows Teslas to use CCS1 chargers.

why couldn’t Tesla, Ford or Lectron or someone make a Tesla-CCS1 plug adapter to allow folks to use SuperChargers? Seems then just a software thing to roll out for Tesla to open its network and get all that good federal subsidy.

Feel like I’m missing something?

 

why couldn’t Tesla, Ford or Lectron or someone make a Tesla-CCS1 plug adapter to allow folks to use SuperChargers?

They can, if Tesla allows you to activate their chargers.

Only some Tesla chargers can be activated by non-teslas through the app (magic dock chargers).

They don't have credit card readers or any way to activate on the chargers themselves. So billing and initiation has to be through Tesla or their app.

 

Just another step in Tesla getting out of the car making business and into the selling electricity business...... They're the gas station of the future

 

Tesla and Ford are partnering to enable their plug and charge (and backend payment) at any magic dock (CCS capable) Tesla chargers.

After Ford changes over to NACS, that will expand to all Tesla chargers.

If it all works out like that then yeah this is awesome. And I would want it in Polestars too. I guess until it’s all rolled out and is clearly working I remain skeptical.

 

That article says nothing about Tesla's connector. Back in about 2015 Elon said anyone can use the connector form factor if they want to, some auto makers expressed interest but never took Tesla up on the offer. Eventually Tesla formalized the connector.

Reason no auto maker up until now used the connector it is because of pride. Ford's Jim Farley has realized that is a bad strategy. If you still doubt any of this, consider Tesla is giving Ford access to their API not just the hardware. This is extremely smart of Tesla they are not pulling a Beta like Sony did.

 

That article says nothing about Tesla's connector. Back in about 2015 Elon said anyone can use the connector form factor if they want to, some auto makers expressed interest but never took Tesla up on the offer. Eventually Tesla formalized the connector.

Reason no auto maker up until now used the connector it is because of pride. Ford's Jim Farley has realized that is a bad strategy. If you still doubt any of this, consider Tesla is giving Ford access to their API not just the hardware. This is extremely smart of Tesla they are not pulling a Beta like Sony did.

And as we all know, everything Elon says is completely truthful and there's nothing else hidden behind it. Why Other Car Companies Don't Use Tesla Superchargers

Elon and Tesla making public statements belie the complexity behind the actual patent pledge they made years ago. While I'm sure car companies could try to negotiate (and no doubt did at one point), why bother when they can use an industry standard that isn't encumbered by a potentially hostile IP holder? We have no clue what happened behind closed doors - the connector and charging standard are useless unless there are chargers to support it, and we don't know what else Tesla was going to ask for in exchange for allowing other companies to use their network. Hell, we don't know what happened with Ford either.

Given the uncertainty behind what Tesla was actually making available in their original patent pledge, you can't make assumptions that everyone else was simply ignoring them because of "pride". NACS is a much better step that does way more than their original pledge, but it comes at such a late stage and complicates standardization across the (US/NA) industry even further.

 

The long game is what people (including regulators) should be paying attention to and be very wary of. This is not about solving an immediate charging infrastructure issue. This is about one automotive manufacturer controlling the future of energy for the entire automotive industry in North America.

Sure, they are opening it so anyone is free to use THEIR technology and infrastructure, but ultimately they will control the future direction of the technology and who is able to access it, and how it integrates with vehicles and the electrical grid. And if we’ve seen how Elon commoditizes and controls access to something like Twitter, why would the entire industry give him control of the charging standard in good faith?

 

The long game is what people (including regulators) should be paying attention to and be very wary of. This is not about solving an immediate charging infrastructure issue. This is about one automotive manufacturer controlling the future of energy for the entire automotive industry in North America.

Sure, they are opening it so anyone is free to use THEIR technology and infrastructure, but ultimately they will control the future direction of the technology and who is able to access it, and how it integrates with vehicles and the electrical grid.

Blame Tesla for doing it better than anyone else, solid. Should Tesla start sucking with their energy division would that make you happy?

And if we’ve seen how Elon commoditizes and controls access to something like Twitter, why would the entire industry give him control of the charging standard in good faith?

What in the world are you talking about? Twitter is now open to everyone as long as they follow basic rules unlike under previous ownership. You couldn't have picked a worse example.

 

Are any other charging networks free to use the Tesla connector? Or is this just a way for Tesla to have control over the charging network?

Also, this is purely a US phenomenon. The rest of the world has agreed to use open standards, and there is no way the Europeans or Chinese are going to switch. Even Teslas use CCS2 in Europe/Australia and the Chinese connector in China. (Also Canada are stuck doing whatever the US does).

Remember that although Tesla call their connector a “standard”, it isn’t. It has not been adopted as a standard, if it was Tesla would lose control.

 

Are any other charging networks free to use the Tesla connector? Or is this just a way for Tesla to have control over the charging network?

Great question. I can't find any info on whether Tesla loosened restrictions over their patents as part of releasing the NACS spec - if they haven't changed their rules around their patents then others can use it with a bunch of stipulations that make the standard not quite as open as they'd like to make it seem. Hopefully there will be some legal analysis of what Tesla is actually releasing - documents detailing a specification for charging isn't the same as making an actually open standard others can freely use.

 

If Tesla actually wanted to work with the entire industry on an open standard (and didn't want to use CCS1) then they'd be giving the specification to a standards body (or working to create a new one with others in the industry) and then having that body control the specification along with the rights to use the relevant patents without stipulations that extend outside the reach of the standard itself.

But that's not what they're doing - they've published a specification but otherwise they still control it entirely. And if it's controlled by a singular company then it shouldn't be what the industry adopts - end of story. If CCS1 isn't good enough then sure, work to replace it, but replace it with something that's jointly maintained by all the major players and not just the current market leader.

 

Then support the company that has a world wide charging network and opens up all their tech for anyone to use. Problem solved. End of story.

 

You're really mad Tesla is doing what is best for them financially? What a bizarre way to think.

 

You're really mad that Tesla is doing what is best for them financially? What a bizarre way to think.

No, I'm mad that people like you seem to think that somehow it's best for the industry if a single company controls standardization. I have no beef with Tesla retaining control over their charging specification, I have an issue with them making it seem like it's "open" when it's not and people jumping to their defense instead of trying to build a standard that benefits the entire industry in the long run.

 

I think musk is running scared. He's worried that his walled garden will be left to die. I'm not happy with this partnership, but I understand why they did it. The world is still going CCS, so this is hopefully just a temporary setback.

 

What happens with home chargers? If you get a Ford with a Tesla connector, do you have to buy a Tesla brand home charger?

 

Sure, Jan. And R. Wayne could have replaced Jobs.

 

Jobs didn’t invest in Apple with his Daddy’s money. He and 2 others started the company from scratch in their garage. I think you need to learn some Tesla history.

Obviously Musk is good at PR and getting people to work hard. But he’s not an inventor.

Also, Apple have been very successful since Jobs died.

 

Vertically integrated companies that produce both an essential product, and the utilities that enables their use, make regulators nervous.
IMO, we’ll continue to see Tesla open up their supercharger network and relax IP rights around charging in an effort to stave off the inevitable; the regulatory breakup of Tesla the carmaker, and Tesla the public utility provider.

Tesla, and what was the historical Bell System/AT&T share of number parallels. One can debate the merits or “fairness” of such a move, but in the end, I think it’s inevitable.

 

Vertically integrated companies that produce both an essential product, and the utilities that enables their use, make regulators nervous.
IMO, we’ll continue to see Tesla open up their supercharger network and relax IP rights around charging in an effort to stave off the inevitable; the regulatory breakup of Tesla the carmaker, and Tesla the public utility provider.

Tesla, and what was the historical Bell System/AT&T share of number parallels. One can debate the merits or “fairness” of such a move, but in the end, I think it’s inevitable.

Tesla the automotive company and Tesla the solar, battery storage and Supercharger company are already diverging. Whether for regulatory purposes or just the usual business ongoings, I agree, it’s inevitable we’ll see some sort of split in the not too distant future. When that happens then I’ll feel better about NACS potentially taking primacy as the charging standard in N America.

 

I wish I had your optimism (if you'd call it that?). It seems like US regulators haven't had real teeth for quite a while. I'd love to be wrong, though.

Regardless, it's better to not even let anyone get into the position where antitrust action is necessary.

 

I liked when this thread was about a competitor starting to use the NCAS (Tesla) port...

 

I hope they create an adaptor for other cars too. I have a feeling though that this deal and opening of select super chargers in the north was a plan to fulfill the bare minimum requirements for Tesla to keep their tax incentives, and they actually wont open up their super chargers any further to non-teslas in any capacity.

There’s also the fear of things going too far the other way and Tesla monopolizing the field and raising rates accordingly.

 

Only can happen in the US and NA, Europe has already forced Tesla to conform to ccs2.

 

In short, the biggest reason EVs exist is because of the development of Lithium batteries, not because of certain individuals existing.

Personally I’m a believer in psychohistory. 😉 and Musk ain’t no Mule.

 

Look, I’m no fan of Tesla or Elon, but it would be disingenuous for me to say Elon wasn’t the Steve Jobs of EVs. We can nitpick over which one was more of a technical engineer in bringing a technology to market, but both of them were the leads and faces of companies that revolutionized their industries and the progress of completely new categories. Does that mean either Apple or Tesla should not be meticulously scrutinized as to whether regulators should explore antitrust legislation? No. We should assess both as to what is good for consumers and the public interest. Not sure why we’re trying to prove what Tesla is… whatever they are, we should assess their technology and potential for monopoly like any other company and legislate accordingly. BTW I say “we” but I mean “you” America because ultimately how you go we go.

 

Does that mean either Apple or Tesla should not be meticulously scrutinized as to whether regulators should explore antitrust legislation? No. We should assess both as to what is good for consumers and the public interest. Not sure why we’re trying to prove what Tesla is… whatever they are, we should assess their technology and potential for monopoly like any other company and legislate accordingly. BTW I say “we” but I mean “you” America because ultimately how you go we go.

This is an inherent flaw in capitalism. The goal of any public company is to continually increase profits. And so they need to figure out how to continually grow. At some point they get too big and are able to manipulate markets too much and need to be broken up.

 

People wouldn’t be so against NACS if it wasnt for Elon being such a controversial person. But it really is a better product so can’t blame market forces for choosing a better solution.

CCS is a crappy design built by committees, hopefully Polestar ends up ditching it too since their Superbowl ad was literally “No design by committee”

 

People wouldn’t be so against NACS if it wasnt for Elon being such a controversial person. But it really is a better product so can’t blame market forces for choosing a better solution.

CCS is a crappy design built by committees, hopefully Polestar ends up ditching it too since their Superbowl ad was literally “No design by committee”

NACS is better. CCS is a dinosaur in comparison.

 

NACS vs. CCS? In practical terms an argument about nothing. So long as the thing connects and charges why does it matter what the plug looks like?

 

It absolutely doesn't. But we are all looking for a solution that solves the mess that is charging currently in the US